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Your participation in helping us identify both our strong and weak points will help us improve our service(s) to all our stakeholders. Thank you, number as soon as IP returns will have him call. Don't argue with these pros. All the information we have at this point shows that he blamed ATC for . Caller - this is xx. Always IFR but I still remember feeling like a pain in the ass for asking for VFR service from a controller having a bad day. There must be zero tolerance. I fly in the busy Chicago airspace as a private pilot and the vast majority of Private pilots are as professional as the air transport pilots, and are often much less complacent in and around the class B and class C airspace. A copy of documents responsive to the request. ], Subject: RE: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020. . That's movie crap. Visit a tracon JUST ONCE. LAS: "N1NR, possible pilot deviation, advise to contact Las Vegas approach. I love listening to air traffic control audio, either just live, or recordings of interesting interactions. With respect to my comment above (cant edit), delete the word email from the comment (next to last word). Flightaware shows he flew in from denver at 16300' level the whole way. Then you are free to call the tower on the landline when you land and find out why you were denied clearance or complain about poor services. and I think you are either that rude pilot or his wife. I'd like to know more about the outcome. Keep up the anti-mask bs. But if it was just a misjudgment, and we all make those from time to time, the appropriate response would be to simply apologize to the Controller, then get out. Looks like he was below 6000 the whole time. The best way to ensure that you do not get in any trouble is to stay vigilant, follow the rules, and file a report if you know that an error has occurred on your behalf. The aircraft, N731NR, is registered to "Wife Approved LLC." He responded rogerrrrrrrrrr. IFR Deviations - This is the most common of violations that happens the . Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". In contrast, the pilot of N731NR exhibited an unrepentant anti-authority attitude. Now he may have requested clearance BUT requesting clearance and being granted clearance are two different things. This leads the pilot to tell ATC to clear him. There are legal charges. > ATC should have called the Airforce on him. I'm a Retired LAS Controller. Thank you. In other words, his head was so far up his ass And he had to know that ATC comms are recorded. There are published VFR approaches and having flowing the west side "water tower" I know they're trivial. Recognizing the mistakes, learning from them, and apologizing makes for more experienced PICs, and thus safer airspace. To all the negative comments we did not hear previous communication. Go get him FAA!!! At the end, it seems like there was at least one transmission we didn't hear where this pilot was giving "his side of the story" to Henderson Ground, hence that controller apologizing to him. Amelia McGillManagement & Program Analyst (FOIA Coordinator)FAA-Office of Foundational BusinessCorrespondence Services Branch, AFB-130424-405-7221. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue. often don't recognize their own issue. There's no stick up anyone's ass here just concerned people who want to ensure the people who trust us to get them to point B are safe. Good luck. An entitled pilot enters restricted airspace and argues with air traffic control when told to leave.It appears to be a normal day June 20, 2020 at Las Vegas Air Traffic Control (ATC) when an air traffic controller directing planes notices a small Cessna in Bravo airspace that was not cleared to be there. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? This should help to give you a better understanding of pilot deviation and the risks that are associated with it. B734. For a bit of background Bravo airspace or Class B airspace is the term for the airspace around the busiest airports in the country. I'm flying.". I suspect the way this will be (or has been) settled is that both the controller and the pilot will be counseled respectively on what they could have done to prevent the situation. These guys & women keep 10-20 balls in the air constantly..you think you can do better?? This pilot penatrated that airspace at what appears to have been approximately 4800. It will get figured out. Or, the guy may be a massive jerk. Your request is assigned to the office listed below: Federal Aviation Administration Contact: Amelia McGillWestern-Pacific Region (424) 405-7221Flight Standards Division, AWP-200777 S. Aviation Blvd.El Segundo, CA 90245. Or the one over Cerritos in 1986? No request for Bravo clearance is heard.While it is not known what N1NR said in the last exchange, this is the nature of radio communications as some transmissions do not go through. Without that you cannot enter class B airspace. Second in a high traffic area like near an airport multiple pilots can be on the same channel, it is a way to identify the pilot speaking as one pilot may sound like another. Probably is not the first time he had poor service from ATC. Anyone flying under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) needs to hear the words You are cleared to enter the Bravo airspace before entering the Bravo airspace. She should have vectored him out after he refused. The controller continues to direct other traffic including warning other planes in the area that N1NR is there and approximately where it is so that they do not collide with it as it has still not left Bravo. Can A Private Pilot Fly As A Sport Pilot. Learn more. He SHOULD lose his cert for The dude that delivered it to the lake about busted the landing. In other words, his head was so far up his ass Wnt to the FBO called the ATC sup from the day before had him and the controller involved from the previous flight, made student apologize for his behavior requested they critique student radio skill (he always had a cigar stub in his mouth, refused to remove it). Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. None of my students have gotten one either. When told to leave it, he refused and was belligerent. This is serious,you can't be that blatantly disobedient. The Ultimate Guide On How To Become An Airline Pilot. I have to say the VASAviation guts who make these videos to an awesome job, its really cool how they combine the audio with the radar detail. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. Dad was a FBO, Commercial, Instructor, Multi, Aerobatic, crop duster and Instrument. Or, the guy may be a massive jerk. But if we want to affect change, we need to do it safely and respectfully. Dad got home that night after his charter. When other pilots are straight up calling you an asshole on frequency, and nobody but you is concerned by it, YOU fucked up. Neil Wilsonthe CFIIsays "maybe the controller was playing her class BRAVO authority a little too far".. You should not be a CFII with that kind of attitude. Keith - THANK YOU for all that you did to ensure the safety of your passengers and your crew! @Coinneach - Im fully aware of their rights, and I do not have to agree with it. Who knows what the FAA would consider a serious offense if we ever make a legitimate error? The guy should be grounded for a nice long while. Review: EgyptAir Lounge Cairo Airport (CAI). But you'd think that someone displaying this much attitude and disrespect for critical rules would have shown his true colors and been denied a license much earlier. Continuing into class Bravo airspace without a clearance and then flying right thru the active ILS approach to a major airport is a huge problem. However, the penalties for pilot deviation can be quite severe, which is something that you should be aware of. Unfortunately we are unable to move forward with your request until we have a name. and our https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/a1wehj/so_who_has_one_of_these/ Cut off a commercial airline at the beginning of his short final resulting in a missed approach and go round for him. First, when aviation is involved we ALL give a f. People's lives are at risk. "N731NR (whining): "I'm inside"LAS: "You were not given a clearance through the Bravo. Harrison Ford is an accomplished pilot that made the same sort of mistake that many Commercial ATP pilots have made setting up for the wrong runway or taxiway etc. Sometimes they have multiple frequencies on the same station, so you might hear more than one controller. This guy make me sick!!! Shout out to Capt. We have your student at the local FBO, and one of my people has the keys. No one commented on the commercial airliner that had to deviate (immediate drop in altitude) from his glide path when he got a visual on the offending email plane. Good luck. Outside of banner ads published through the Boarding Area network, this compensation does not impact how and where products appear on this site. You might get hypoxic if you fly right over Class B at 10000 or above. N731NR: "Vegas Approach, Centurion 731NR with you descending through 5700'"LAS: "1NR, Las Vegas Approach, Las Vegas altimeter, 29.88. I will answer the question exactly as written: > When ATC has you call. The Cessna P210N stall speed is 67 knots. If you read what I wrote with an open mind and still think I have a stick up my ass, go read up on Kobe Bryant the basketball legend no longer with us because someone buckaroo'd it. 2) If he claims some kind of medical condition, goodbye medical certificate. Almost everybody agrees the jerk was wrong and dangerously so. Hundreds could have died. . N731NR Aircraft Registration Aircraft Summary Summary 1980 CESSNA P210N Fixed wing single engine (6 seats / 1 engine) Owner WIFE APPROVED LLC TORRANCE , CA, US Airworthiness Class Standard/Normal Serial Number P21000509 Engine CONT MOTOR TSIO-520 SER (Reciprocating) Horsepower: 300 Weight Less than 12,500lbs Speed 141mph Mode S Code "Other pilot: "You're an ass$&#!". The few concerns about behavior affected by incipient tumor or hypoxia bring back memories. For the next month Dad did at least one flight with all of IPs students to check on his teaching ability. I didn't hear anything that I didn't find out of line. I was the 16yo kid working the desk when his #2 instructor sent a private student off on his long cross country and controlled airspace solo flight he went to lunch. For those that don't want to read. My reliable bet is that sometime between approach switching the aircraft to tower and the time the phone number is read, the pilot gave the tower controller a sob story. Possible Pilot Deviation Imagine you're the PIC, departing from Runway 27L. When you have 2 F-16s or 2 F-15s escorting you that should bring sense into your head faster than having the nerve to argue. Heres the full ATC audio, should you want to listen to it (when you listen to it youll appreciate just how angry this guys tone is): Ive never heard ATC audio where a pilot is so disobedient to instructions. They don't take airspace incursions lightly, ESPECIALLY in the #8 most busy airport in the US. Get the stick out of your asses. . What happened to this pilot? He exercised his PIC. See more about our ethics policies here. I look forward to receiving your response to this request within 20 business days, as the statute requires. We will also go into the consequences that could occur if you were to get into trouble for this. Thank you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter. The pilot violated the FARs and FSDO needs to take appropriate action. This isnt a slap on the wrist type of offense. He risked lives at the time of this incident, and in the future if pilots aren't seriously punished for this kind of behavior. Sometimes pilots make a mistake and wrongly enter this zone which is deemed a violation. 866.835.5322 (866-TELL-FAA)Contact Us, United States Department of Transportation, Aviation Safety Draft Documents Open for Comment, Airport Coronavirus Response Grant Program, Legislation & Policies, Regulations & Guidance, Certificated Remote Pilots including Commercial Operators, Recreational Flyers & Modeler Community-Based Organizations, Archived Quarterly Enforcement Reports (These reports date back to the first quarter of 1997. When an aircraft is approaching your airspace and the destination is on the opposite side, it's obvious that they're going to need to descend at some point. Airborne deviations can result when pilots stray from an assigned, heading, altitude, or instrument procedure, or if they penetrate controlled or restricted airspace without ATC clearance. You can listen along to ATC at liveatc.net and search for RDU in the upper left. I was interested in being a Pilot but it shocks me how awful other pilots can be, they even revert to ganging up or saying a terrible thing because of a mistake another pilot made as if they "the great one" has never made a mistake in their life. I wonder if they're aware of how much exposure this has in the pilot community. But Id recommend against posting it, even if that person turns out to be the idiot in question. ATC "OK, state reasons please". I thought I was cleared, I have an ill 6 year old on board. Nobody in Vegas is "allergic to rules." Pilot deviation is when the actions of the pilot result in the violation of a Federal Aviation Regulation or a North American Aerospace Defense Command Air Defense Identification Zone tolerance. That's a terrible thing to say, that a pilot should lose his license. People get frustrated in the air just like they do in cars and dont get their license suspended. [His lack of permission and knowledge about needing such was discussed by previous posters and is referenced here just for completeness.]. How much you want to bet this pilot is one of the people who refuse to wear a mask? Go read the news HERE AND NOW and find out when we call the cops with the .50 BMGs to take out one guy going to the store because he looks "suspicious".*. Student - he did get his private after 3 more months of practice. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. ATC is trying to direct traffic and Mr Wachner regardless of a possible misunderstanding says to hell with you I'm doing what I want. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? I can almost guarantee you that this clown had the certified letter from the local FSDO awaiting in his mailbox, still smoking by the time he arrived home. Plus..help us if weather becomes a problem, as it did yesterday..with vectors around threatening weather. Subject: FOIA 2020-007191WP DUE: 8/6/2020, 411A Highland AvenueSomerville, MA 02144-2516, Subject: Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) Request 2020-007191WP. How reassuring and interesting your post is, Eldo. The controller states that the pilot needs clearance to be in Bravo and to have requested clearance. Attached is the letter in response to your above mentioned FOIA request. What's the big deal? This kind of thing gets people killed. Student name just called ATC, skipped approach control called the tower directly when he was on a short final for FSD advised his name and I'm coming in. I was a center controller and am now retired. Secure .gov websites use HTTPS Thank one every time you get where you're going. The Original Donna: Class Bravo & Charlie airspace requires certain verbal permission to fly in/out/ and through it, but you have basic lack of understanding when it comes to the airspace system I fear. I live in Las Vegas. like this one. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. Always good to receive a reminder that your pilot may be a nut case and we can just hope we never find out if s/he is or not. Ive dealt the entering class B many times. Me - knowing said student thought oh ##@@. Second, yes, people make mistakes, and when someone tells you "Hey you made a mistake here's how to correct it" you do just that. Air traffic controllers are susceptible to power trips and moods and biases, just like everyone else. Washington, DC 20591 Not buying the sick daughter excuse. Either that or he's going to get some very long vectors around special use airspace. Humans make mistakes sometimes its not a reason to bully somebody. The guy should be investigated and suspended until taught both manners and flying law. Isnt the airspace over international airports congested (and dangerous) enough without these general aviation Cesena clowns and the Harrison Fords of the world putting the rest of us at risk? An official website of the United States government Here's how you know. I'm a commercial pilot and CFII. Sometimes ATC attitude causes the problems. The FARs couldn't be more clear on this situation. 1NR, exit the Bravo immediately"N731NR (whining): "I've been talking to you the whole time. airworthiness of an aircraft or the current aircraft configuration. If an ATC clearance has been obtained, there is no pilot that is allowed to deviate from the given clearance unless an amended clearance has been obtained, there is an emergency, or the deviation is in response to an air traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact the coordinator(s) found in the letter. For more information, please see our He busted that test and they pulled his ticket. Opinions expressed here are the authors alone, and have not been reviewed, approved or otherwise endorsed by any of these entities. In the next couple of weeks this is what he can expect: 1 Phone call with FAA to get pilots side of the story. Please provide a copy of all records previously provided under FOIA request: 2020-007074WS . I remember many times that pilots would argue with me about instructions. He just flat out refused. It would be one thing if he "unintentionally" violated the Class B airspace (how exactly do you do that in this day and age?). When the controller said he was not cleared to enter the class B he probably thought he wasn't in the class B and after his 1st conversation is when he probably noticed he was off altitude because he made a quick decent to 4000 ft. His next run in is when he cut the corner of the center ring which is from the ground to 10000 ft MSL. NASTY ARGUMENT between Cessna Pilot and Vegas ATC! I too am amazed at the next tower's apology. Privacy Policy. This pilot should have been arrested and given a breathalyzer upon landing. Civil aviation authorities should raise pilot standards. Pull that @$$holes license and give him a huge fine. This guys ego trip does not trump the lives of the flying public and those on the ground who live under the pattern. Yes humans make mistakes, and that is why aviation has the strictest protocols outside the nuclear industry. Other pilots chimed in calling him for what he was. I drove IP the 95 miles to FSD and he had a session with the controller and the supervisor. Honestly I'm not sure why. The more belligerent she became the more concerned the staff was. She is going to give him the number when he's ready. He should AT LEAST be suspended, and frankly, given his behavior, I have no issue with his losing it. The pilot of N731NR is a jerk, as well as an unsafe pilot that should not be flying. What would the discussion be today if there had been a midair collision like the one in San Diego in 1979 with the PSA 727 and a Cessna? You need special clearance to enter this airspace. The information contained in this record should be the most current Airworthiness information available in the historical aircraft record. Making excuses for people gets others killed. LOL this is probably the same guy that registered the aircraft to WIFE APPROVED LLC. Some of the penalties of pilot deviation can be no action, a warning notice or letter of correction, certificate suspension, civil penalties, retraining, and even certificate revocation. Even if you dont have a good understanding of ATC terminology, the situation should be easy enough to make sense of. We are going to explain what pilot deviation is in this article, and how serious this violation can be for you. The pilots is always in command, not the controller. He refuses to leave airspace even though he never had clearance to fly through it, and he refuses to take down a number because hes flying., Hopefully an investigation is done and this guy loses his license. Please view our advertising policy page for additional details about our partners. The call taker should stick to the facts and avoid all emotionality, etc. Don't assume the pilot flying owns the aircraft. He endangered so many people. All I do is shake my head and smile. This may come as a shock to you, but us general aviation Cesena (sic) clowns have as much right to use the airspace as any commercial operation. It appears this pilot got sloppy without realizing he got sloppy. Me - no sir back in aprox 20mts. There are reasons for the rules. If you should have any trouble viewing this email or the attachment, please notify us immediately. I think by "Airforce" [sic] you're thinking of all those movies you've seen. My father was an Air Traffic Controller when the accident happened over San Diego in 1979 (not the one on duty when the accident occurred) so I know just as much about the history of this airspace as you claim to know, maybe even more. It is really important to understand how severe the consequences can be. . What are the Advantages of Using VOR Systems for Navigation? Although VASAviation transcribed it as "you're being that," it sounded to me more like this pilot started to retort with, "YOU'RE being an ass--", then caught himself and said, "That is not appropriate language.". At this point another pilot chimes in and says youre an [emailprotected]@hole, and the pilot responds youre being that, this is not appropriate language. The video then goes back to the previous communication, which makes it clear that the pilot had never received clearance. So long "Karen". https://onemileatatime.com/atc-audio-negligent-pilot/. There's many reasons my flights keep being delayed and canceled and ATC being overworked is one of them. You have successfully joined our subscriber list. PS: The trauma was from being hit with luggage that fell out of the overhead upon disembarking. Either that, or "Karen" is the "wife" this aircraft is registered to in "Wife Approved LLC". We all know the pilot was wrong but. maybe he's tired of the attitude of that particular class bravo. He had to pass my father's exam before IP could sign off on him. Yeah, he was a jerk, but she is paid to problem solve, and she didn't offer him any useful solutions other than to just leave. Especially for psychological problems, and probably especially if something's making you hypoxic below 6000 feet. Pilot deviation can leave passengers, crew, and people on the ground in danger. Thanks to anyone who knows. I'd always much rather be proactive and prevent a pilot deviation. I received a disc from the FAA containing the Air Traffic Organization response and I loaded everything from that disc into this Google Drive folder.