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Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. She said she shot him. So, have you experienced shooting someone at close range with each caliber to determine the stopping power of each round? Proper shot placement is the lamest argument based on logic. The same companies make the 45acp and other calibers! For those that think their their 45 is best, Ill shoot my 9mm and for those that think their 9mm is best, Ill shoot my 45. Physics says my 225 grain .45 ACP ,+P+ traveling at 1210 fps is more capable than ANY 9mm currently available. Sick and tried of people not in the field deciding what is best for those in the field. Youll immediately learn the, Why didnt I squeeze the trigger when I had the shot? Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. I dont have a dog in that race but it is important to give proper information, not just anything that will satisfy your viewpoint no matter how erroneous. The reason they went over to the +P was to punch through windshields. .223 Rem in 5.56 NATO is OK. This post reported that the FBI Training Division had reevaluated which handgun round was best for FBI agents and reached the following conclusions: The 2014 FBI Training Division Report stated that the FBI had chosen the 9mm bullet (147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2) for FBI agents to carry because, The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.. In my limited experience, shot placement is is the ultimate factor with any round. So its purpose is based on design. We can argue 9 vs 45. When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. He carries a nine personally currently because of the round capacity but in combat 45. Now for long engagements that are seen more in military ops and where fire suppression matters most I prefer 9mm. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. I totally agree about shot placement. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. Ive carried about every size round in my 71+ years of which 36 was an LEO. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. If, God forbid, you are ever in a situation where you are required to use your handgun, there is, to put it mildly, a great deal at stake. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . , Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Good article and very good to great comments. Hogwash!! The .50 By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. Stay safe everyone, JP, first of all, Im really sorry you had to go through that. Accounting for human anatomy and the fact that an agent may fire at a suspect from a variety of angles, it was established that 12 inches was the minimum Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. And since the FBI was the agency who failed in the first place well, why follow thier blind lead? Shooting another person is only done with the intention to, at the very least, incapacitate the subject to protect the physical safety of others. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. Source: I still prefer the .45. It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. And fyi, if you are an expert at shooting a needle into peoples medulla, caliber is irrelevant until the large size becomes combersome. unless the guy is coming at you with body armor, if you have more than three bullets in your gun you dont really have a lot to worry about. end of discussion. The bullet lands in the same place because the entire situation and milieu is what determines it. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. there is no substitute for Cubic Inches. Thanks. What do you think of the Shield or do you know anything about it? Confirmed by projectiles taken out of Papa. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. I was a PA-C in the military. Projectiles do not accelerate once they leave the muzzle. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. Thanks for your comment! The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. A 9 is a great backup. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Maybe .22 LR? When a handgun is bought for personal protection, whether in the home or on the street, its purpose is the application of deadly force to protect your own life, the lives of others, and to prevent serious physical harm. for all the same reasons. I shot Master for a while. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. As blood moves through the body, it picks up extra fluid, chemicals and waste. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to You prefer the .45 for stopping power? The rest of the argument as far as damage goes, should be common sense. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. Open carry is fine where Im at. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. I'd like to see the science on that one. Now, I read the officers story. If it works for our troops no matter where it is made thats the one we want. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. That has been the best comment so far. Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. Cheap crap. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. .45 ACP Damage Body Shots Head Shots Sounds Firing (9mm) Firing (.45 ACP) Reloading Swapping To Rarity The Vector is a rare SMG that spawns mainly in Hatchet Cases in the Hydra Bunker and rarely in the Storm Bunker (10% chance). This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. Prefer a 9 mm. I own 9mm, .40 and .45. arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? hand guns to suit little feminine hands who shoots the Bad Guys with far less recoil and stopping power. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. You might be able to talk to the first guy. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. The main reason I now have a 9 mm is that at the time, I could not find a small enough 45 that was double action. I use a 1911 as thats what I learned on, prefer the way it feels in my hand. Now good defensive hollow point is a different story. Youve been practicing with your weapon on a consistent basis. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. Real world combatants or keyboard commandos. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. There are four major handgun founding factors. Also quoting from the Marine Corps Times: The arguments boil down to this: The .45-caliber round is the bigger bullet, so it has the knock down power to neutralize any adversary with one shot; while pistols that fire 9mm rounds are generally more accurate and can carry more bullets. Great article by the way. Circulatory collapse results from massive bleeding caused by bullet wounds primarily to the heart, other major organs or major blood vessels of the torso. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. I served in the USMC and in combat. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. for every day carry. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? I leave distinguishing the difference for law enforcement and military.In the moment of truth youre either going to hit properly or not. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. Interesting. CHEERS. George. He died in our E.R. There is a wide range of participants and many of them have never fired a gun of any kind. When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. I don't know about you, but my .45's seem to be plenty accurate, certainly as precise as any of my 9mm pistols. Train! But whats the long term average? Thats just because most folks never have to shoot someone firing at them. I believe the 45 ACP would scare many and they would rarely shoot to their capability. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? Sound familiar?? It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. When the. Then moved to 10mm (after the 1986 Miami shootout). A high-muzzle bullet, however, destroys whole areas of body. .45 ACP is not the one-shot-stopping hammer that some people think it is. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. I would challenge anyone to shoot a 9mm against my 45 and, I promise my 45 will be the 9mm all day everyday. Take it from me, a physics major. The difference Is not all soldiers are comfortable shooting the heavy recoiling 45 round. Also we are talking pistols. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. Americans have this impression, I think, that comes from watching too many old movies, that a bullet fired from a handgun is supposed to flip the bad guys ten feet into the air, if not disintegrate them altogether and leave a smoking pair of haji sandals on the pavement where they were. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. 125 gr 9 mm PB fully jacketed bullet will generally penetrate both skins of a car door. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. Fired expert m14. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. These features, along with superb marketing efforts, have made the 9mm the round of choice, not only for the armed forces, but also for most police departments in the U.S. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. I have used the 1911 govt. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the bullet. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. To each their own. But its a good idea to carry a backup gun, and 2 spare mags that use the same ammo. Battlestar Galactica. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Trauma surgeons, the guys actually opening up peoples chests and trying to put them back together, say otherwise. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. Especially when it carries nearly double the mass with the bullet? They found that their guns wouldnt stop the insurgents charging at them, until seconds or minutes after the bullets entered their adversaries bodies. We have much better tools now. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. Died instantly. In the above GIF of ballistics gel taking a .50-cal. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Someone may be laughing but I am given to understand that over in Iraq and Astan there are people who frequently HAVE had to chase down individuals who have been wounded with a handgun. I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Witnessed it first hand. I think everyone should think back to why the 1911 was made. My opinion, for whatever its worth, is that were all overthinking this. If you are in the sixties o more 9 mm is the best choice. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. I also have one that many people will call garbage. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. And Im not always concerned with concealing. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. False. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. And the department is no small one. Modern ammunition changes the field somewhat. After reading your article, I had to 1.) No vest..and since it was my idea.I Shoot First! A 1911 in 9MM? Every round has its purpose. This is just one of them: https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/. too powerful??? Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. Thank you Bill ! The primary result of permanent cavity damage is profuse bleeding. Wow now this argument of 9 mm verses 45 acp is stupid. and departments. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. The saga will never end. Ive got a good deal of ballistic and aeronautical knowledge under my belt, and I agree in flight friction coefficient is not something that plays a significant enough role in comparative analysis of 9mm and 45 Auto at practical ranges. The penetration of various materials can be of great assistance in the investigation of shooting incidents. I Have hair and an angular face. So, is the 9mm the ultimate handgun around? Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. Looks like a Chinese-made toy gun. I like how the author notes that the accuracy analogy is nonsense, thats true. But only weighed 140 lbs then. It makes a bigger hole. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. Really late to the discussion. Scratch expensive 45s. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. 1039 NE Loop 410San Antonio, TX 78209(210)-533-5431, 819 Hot Wells BlvdSan Antonio, Texas 78223(210)-533-5468, WE SHIP TO ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, Copyright 2023 Durys Guns | Powered by Durys Guns. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. However, caliber is at least as important and should not be ignored when choosing a weapon. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). Shot placement is often cited as a consideration when choosing the right handgun for self defense and for good reason its definitely important. If that were true, we would only have one size Shoe, Clothing Etc. You do your failure drill. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. If you wound one man, you take three men out of battle, one injured & two to care for him. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. In that encounter, Sgt Gramins shot the suspect 14 times, any one of 6 of those would have almost certainly been fatal wounds. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Thats my two cents for what its worth. Another deputy acquired a .45 and was having trouble being able to qualify with it. The bullet that struck U.S. Representative Steve Scalise last week was traveling at somewhere between 1,100 and 2,600 feet per second. You, ordinary walking around citizen are likely to be accosted from very close range, within say 10 feet to up close. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. A 35-45 psi I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. I used to work in inner city and poor crime ridden areas when all I had was the 45. Are there exceptions? In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. But why not? The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Without fragmentation, temporary cavity wounds can be relatively minor. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Im sorry, but the .50 Barrett sucks there is no match grade ammo available for it. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. They are a secondary source at best. Head on over to the Concealed Carry Podcast for great audio content. 10mm. If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. ), provide a detailed description of the incident and review the critical importance of choosing the appropriate duty-carry handgun rounds for police officers. quick defense trigger and has an extended 17rnd clip. The .45 is a less desirable round because of Air Resistance? and love a SA trigger. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Damage: 62. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. Testing shows terminal ballistics of modern 9mm is virtually the same as the .40S&W or the older .45ACP round. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. I have a Glock19 and Glock23 chambered .40S&W and that is a great round to. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. Were investigating how it spends its money. The mechanism by which adamantinomatous craniopharyngioma (ACP) damages the hypothalamus is still unclear. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. Why do I say that? Lets say it is winter and a large person is wearing very heavy clothing. Glocks are cheap, reliable, and have built a big following. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. This was not a good CC carry for me so I stoped carring for a while. Make your best shot number one. The quibble is over. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. Then they changed to .40S&W (once they realized how difficult it was for some agents to handle). How about that..most people shot by handguns survive. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. It is also logical to assume that when the larger round enters a major body organ, the negative impact upon that organ will be more significant. I carry a para-ordinance warthog in 45 when its cold.I shoot the gun enought to know I can hit what Im aiming at. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. WebSTI Tactical. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. Wood, USMC, 1966-68, Quang tri Province. For a bullet to be effective for law enforcement, it must be able to penetrate the body between 12 and 18 inches to reach large vital organs to cause rapid blood loss. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. There is little or no noticeable difference in wound tracks between 9mm Luger, .40 S&W and .45 Auto premium line rounds. I however still allowed to carry a 45 and, will as long as I am able to. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. I trap and shoot most animals with a Browning 1911-22 now. Avoid contact with other people's blood and body fluids. pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. No regrets. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. It normally doesnt do that with hollowpoints, either.